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	<title>Comments on: Things that might seem obvious</title>
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	<link>http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/</link>
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		<title>By: Jen Pierce</title>
		<link>http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-67</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen Pierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 03:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/#comment-67</guid>
		<description>Hi Bo!  Hmm... yes, I suppose you might be right.  I&#039;m a pretty practical person, and embracing libertarian philosophy of any kind already puts you in a rather impractical position.  I frequently feel helpless as I watch the government make policy decisions I oppose, with great popular support.  Add another layer of abstraction on top of it, and I start to feel like I&#039;m in a logic class rather than a serious policy discussion.  (Nothing against logic classes, but the level at which I personally invest in them is different.)

I certainly favor a society in which rights are respected and citizens are free from coercion.  But if I had to choose between that society and one in which children were healthy and well-cared-for, it&#039;s not a clear-cut decision for me.  Luckily, these aren&#039;t mutually exclusive, but if they were, I mean... they&#039;re children.  They&#039;re dying in the street.  It&#039;s a problem.  Obviously these are extreme examples - in real life, it&#039;s more likely that these two societies would meet messily somewhere in between (which is, arguably, what we have today).  But, yes, in the end, I&#039;m someone who appreciates a practical real-world implementation more than a pure and internally consistent argument.  It&#039;s unfortunate that we don&#039;t have better modeling tools; as Vroman stated in his recent post, the system of economic behavior is large and complex, and I understand the temptation to dismiss real-world data and stick with the principles that can be absolutely known.  But if I&#039;m honest, I have to admit that political discussions that ignore the reality of how people actually behave are largely uninteresting to me. 

This is a bit of a tangent from your original point; I guess I am neither Rothbardian nor utilitarian, but somewhere in the middle.  I wouldn&#039;t choose to give up my civil liberties.  I don&#039;t want orphans dying in the streets.  Whatever society or policy offers the happiest medium is the one I will root for.  Based on my current information, it seems to be libertarianism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bo!  Hmm&#8230; yes, I suppose you might be right.  I&#8217;m a pretty practical person, and embracing libertarian philosophy of any kind already puts you in a rather impractical position.  I frequently feel helpless as I watch the government make policy decisions I oppose, with great popular support.  Add another layer of abstraction on top of it, and I start to feel like I&#8217;m in a logic class rather than a serious policy discussion.  (Nothing against logic classes, but the level at which I personally invest in them is different.)</p>
<p>I certainly favor a society in which rights are respected and citizens are free from coercion.  But if I had to choose between that society and one in which children were healthy and well-cared-for, it&#8217;s not a clear-cut decision for me.  Luckily, these aren&#8217;t mutually exclusive, but if they were, I mean&#8230; they&#8217;re children.  They&#8217;re dying in the street.  It&#8217;s a problem.  Obviously these are extreme examples &#8211; in real life, it&#8217;s more likely that these two societies would meet messily somewhere in between (which is, arguably, what we have today).  But, yes, in the end, I&#8217;m someone who appreciates a practical real-world implementation more than a pure and internally consistent argument.  It&#8217;s unfortunate that we don&#8217;t have better modeling tools; as Vroman stated in his recent post, the system of economic behavior is large and complex, and I understand the temptation to dismiss real-world data and stick with the principles that can be absolutely known.  But if I&#8217;m honest, I have to admit that political discussions that ignore the reality of how people actually behave are largely uninteresting to me. </p>
<p>This is a bit of a tangent from your original point; I guess I am neither Rothbardian nor utilitarian, but somewhere in the middle.  I wouldn&#8217;t choose to give up my civil liberties.  I don&#8217;t want orphans dying in the streets.  Whatever society or policy offers the happiest medium is the one I will root for.  Based on my current information, it seems to be libertarianism.</p>
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		<title>By: Bo Zimmerman</title>
		<link>http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Bo Zimmerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Apr 2010 01:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/#comment-65</guid>
		<description>Hi Jen.  Something I didn&#039;t hear mentioned in your fascinating account (which makes me wonder if you&#039;ve encountered it) is your impression of Rothbardian libertarians -- that is, those who may concede utilitarian claims such as the ones you espouse, but aren&#039;t necessarily libertarian BECAUSE of them.  Instead, they focus on the inalienability of Rights, and the moral unacceptability of coercion.  For instance, even if I thought privatizing the health-care market would lead to poor helpless children dying in the streets of pneumonia (I don&#039;t), I would still be forced to advocate it, because the alternative (government law -- i.e. theft, violence, and coercion) is morally impermissible.  I also bring this up because it would seem I would be disqualified to discuss politics with you, given your criterion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jen.  Something I didn&#8217;t hear mentioned in your fascinating account (which makes me wonder if you&#8217;ve encountered it) is your impression of Rothbardian libertarians &#8212; that is, those who may concede utilitarian claims such as the ones you espouse, but aren&#8217;t necessarily libertarian BECAUSE of them.  Instead, they focus on the inalienability of Rights, and the moral unacceptability of coercion.  For instance, even if I thought privatizing the health-care market would lead to poor helpless children dying in the streets of pneumonia (I don&#8217;t), I would still be forced to advocate it, because the alternative (government law &#8212; i.e. theft, violence, and coercion) is morally impermissible.  I also bring this up because it would seem I would be disqualified to discuss politics with you, given your criterion.</p>
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		<title>By: False Comparisons &#171; Lady Libertarian</title>
		<link>http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>False Comparisons &#171; Lady Libertarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/#comment-38</guid>
		<description>[...] Uncategorized   After reading the comments that appeared on Andrew Veen&#8217;s re-postingof  Jen Pierce&#8217;s excellent post on a newcomer&#8217;s perspective of libertarian arguments (from The Lesson Applied), I wanted to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Uncategorized   After reading the comments that appeared on Andrew Veen&#8217;s re-postingof  Jen Pierce&#8217;s excellent post on a newcomer&#8217;s perspective of libertarian arguments (from The Lesson Applied), I wanted to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Lesson Applied &#187; False comparisons</title>
		<link>http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>The Lesson Applied &#187; False comparisons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 04:19:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/#comment-31</guid>
		<description>[...] reading the comments that appeared on Andrew Veen&#8217;s re-posting of  Jen Pierce&#8217;s excellent post on a newcomer&#8217;s perspective of libertarian arguments, I wanted to address one of the major [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reading the comments that appeared on Andrew Veen&#8217;s re-posting of  Jen Pierce&#8217;s excellent post on a newcomer&#8217;s perspective of libertarian arguments, I wanted to address one of the major [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Wirkman Virkkala</title>
		<link>http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-21</link>
		<dc:creator>Wirkman Virkkala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/#comment-21</guid>
		<description>Mr. Veen&#039;s comment is an important one. But it immediately gets me thinking: Much of what passes for &quot;helping the poor&quot; in our own society is really &quot;covering up the poor&quot; or &quot;putting them out of our sight.&quot; The classic case is immigration control. Our poor are said to be helped by keeping out cheap immigrant labor, but most studies show that the increased ferment with increasing numbers at the bottom of work-life society is that all are spurred to more industry and better lives. So what immigration control REALLY does is keep poor people in other countries, where our richer &quot;liberals&quot; don&#039;t have to see them and don&#039;t have to feel guilty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Veen&#8217;s comment is an important one. But it immediately gets me thinking: Much of what passes for &#8220;helping the poor&#8221; in our own society is really &#8220;covering up the poor&#8221; or &#8220;putting them out of our sight.&#8221; The classic case is immigration control. Our poor are said to be helped by keeping out cheap immigrant labor, but most studies show that the increased ferment with increasing numbers at the bottom of work-life society is that all are spurred to more industry and better lives. So what immigration control REALLY does is keep poor people in other countries, where our richer &#8220;liberals&#8221; don&#8217;t have to see them and don&#8217;t have to feel guilty.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Veen</title>
		<link>http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Veen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelessonapplied.com/2010/03/26/things-that-might-seem-obvious/#comment-11</guid>
		<description>Private charity is certainly central to the libertarian ideal taking care of the downtrodden, but the true *core* of the argument is that there will be fewer people as members of the &quot;downtrodden&quot; if everything is cheaper, higher tech, and more efficient. Things that stifle these advances in the name of helping the underprivileged often (unfortunately) have the opposite effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Private charity is certainly central to the libertarian ideal taking care of the downtrodden, but the true *core* of the argument is that there will be fewer people as members of the &#8220;downtrodden&#8221; if everything is cheaper, higher tech, and more efficient. Things that stifle these advances in the name of helping the underprivileged often (unfortunately) have the opposite effect.</p>
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